$$$ REVAL $$$Update: Based on the latest discussion about re-assessments on the PILOT thread on analysis provided for a long time reformer I have bumped this up to direct that conversation here. Under my previous commenting system it had generated interest but alas I am starting afresh. This discussion thread that has been created to allow readers to chime in how they feel about re-evaulations in Hoboken.
There has been much talk lately about the impact of a re-evaluation of all of Hoboken's properties for the purposes of more evenly distributed taxation of those properties. The last time one was done was 1988. Here are some leading questions to get the topic going:
- Is Hoboken long overdue for a REVAL of all of its properties?
- Was politics behind waiting over 20 years to do another reval. (i.e. protect the status-quo)
- Contrarian view- Why do a reval.? It won't solve our spending problems and could lead to litigation.
- The way condos have been assessed, has that been fair in relation to valuations of single family homes?
- Will many people be forced to move or will the reval. hurt 1/3, leave 1/3 unaffected, and help 1/3 with the changes in valuations?
- Is it best to do it all in one shot or to do a rolling one as suggested by 30-day Mayor Peter Cammarano in his last great debate performance vs. Dawn Zimmer?
- How bad are the discrepancies in your opinion overall.
The tax maps are the next step to complete before the revaluation can start. ◦
Logging you in...
deleted5542758 83p · 761 weeks ago
Repost of my comment in the Tumpson thread: It's hypocritical of Dan (or anyone) to be so against PILOTs because PILOTs are inequitable, but then Dan himself is paying well below the equitable amount of taxes on his property? What about Indie? Surely she knows that even in a rent controlled unit, if the taxes on her building go up the owner can pass that along to each unit regardless of rent control -- so her rent is inequitably deflated right now because her building is undervalued and not paying what is due. But she screams as loudly as Dan about PILOTs.
I mean, you see the inconsistency here, right? What's good for the goose (Dan & Indie) is not good for the gander? They're getting their's, but no one else should be allowed to (gee, sounds A LOT like Dan's position on that 4th floor variance on his block while he lives on the FIFTH floor! -- at least he's consistently a hypocrite).
ADDED: It seems to me that most anyone living in a brownstone is paying far below market rate for taxes compared to newer buildings. Interesting what the assessed value vs market value is on brownstones vs anything built in the last 5-10 years.
Atticus · 761 weeks ago
khoboken · 761 weeks ago
deleted5542758 83p · 761 weeks ago
Hobbs · 761 weeks ago
It would be nice to have posters on this forum refrain from letting their posts degrade into a personal attack.
Guest II AKA Hobbs
Katie_Scarlett · 761 weeks ago
And I disagree, when stating that PILOTs are the problem and this is why, not accounting for the large amount of under-assessed units in town that are not PILOT projects is disingenuous and intellectually dishonest.
From what I can tell, people who have been "reform" for 10+ years are not all necessarily reformers, but rather better than the Russos & their ilk. And it also seems that if you've lived under the reform label for 10+ years, your motives are not to be questioned by anyone because you've proven yourself beyond reproach to the current "reform" crowd. That's where I break with reform. I do not, and will not, overlook hypocrisies perpetrated by those who shroud themselves in the cloak of "reform" just because they did something good at one time. Being better than the Russos is hardly an achievement. Remember, Roberts was better than the Russos, and reform at one time.
Hobbs · 761 weeks ago
deleted5542758 83p · 761 weeks ago
Gardiner4Hoboken 90p · 761 weeks ago
Here are a few examples of how possibly to better phrase disagreements:
1) Instead of saying they are stupid, say they are mistaken in your opinion.
2) Instead of saying they are a hypocrite overall , say their position is inconsistent with their actions and words in this case.
Basically the language choices you use can at times have a negative impact on the thread. These are just guidelines. More than Dan Tumpson supporters have emailed about their concerns on the tone. If you avoid these personal statements it will improve this site and I think more people will be willing to participate. You know me and I think I am mostly fair and I will admit I am not always right but try to see the big picture and have fun.
As far as Boink goes, if he/she says something that makes sense let him have his/her say otherwise: OPEN SEASON!!!!!!
deleted5542758 83p · 761 weeks ago
Apparently Roman can't tell when I'm goofing off on IM and when I'm serious. I wasn't worried about it. But thanks for your time on this matter, I know you care.
To be clear: I haven't called Dan or Indie stupid or a hypocrite until now (I've said their position is hypocritical). Now I'm saying they're hypocrites. The shoe fits. What do you want me to say to make it better: Dan's position on the variance down the block, and his position on PILOTs is inconsistent with his own living & tax situation? At the end of the day, when Dan appeals and holds up construction at no cost to himself, but at a major cost to builders/his neighbors etc, he's really quite the inconsistent person, since he's not spending his own money doing these things. I think he's (in general) a hypocrite. And I think that these examples show a pattern of behavior consistent with my conclusion.
As for Indie - her position on rent control IS consistent with her milking off the system, so it's hard for me to call her inconsistent there, I just find her to be a mooch. Her hypocrisy comes in when she finger points at others for not paying their fair share. So I guess, that's her "inconsistency". ;) Given that, and her own admitted bullying on the blogs (and then bitching about others doing it), makes me think that in general she's a do as I say not as I do type, or (wait for it) . . . a HYPOCRITE.
I'm not addressing Boink. I find Boink and all the boink copycats to be unworthy of my time. If you want to take it seriously, by all means, address whomever, but what I find detrimental to open and continued dialogue is having multiple people posting under multiple names in the name of "humor". But hey, that's my opinion, and unlike the ninnies emailing you about their concerns, I'm willing to stick it out here for everyone to comment (and complain).
deleted5542758 83p · 761 weeks ago
The thing is, when I post in this manner about Beth Mason or the Russos or anyone considered an Old Guard (someone we can all agree is not a reformer) it's FINE, it's welcomed and it's encouraged (by both sites' operators). When Lenz screwed up and I was hammering away at it, that was also absolutely fine (until it wasn't). But the inconsistency begins when it's someone who was/is labeled a reformer, the kid gloves have to come on and we must treat them with deferential respect. The problem is, I can't do that. It's either talk about who they are or don't contribute. I think what happens for some of you folks is the blurring of friendship vs the actions of the person becomes a factor. People who have lived here for 10+ years and been on "reform's side" since Marsh ran with Roberts on the reform ticket can't/won't see what is staring them in the face. . .and that's the fact that just because they've been fighting to be better for so long doesn't mean there's not considerable room for improvement, both by they themselves and the government in Hoboken.
and that's my point here.
Gardiner4Hoboken 90p · 761 weeks ago
I know sometimes things will cross the line and that it is difficult to figure out what the line is but I just ask that KS and everyone else move a little bit dircted to the issue and not the poster. Boin,k if you behave you can be treated better too but somehow I doubt it.
Sent from my iPhone
Gardiner4Hoboken 90p · 761 weeks ago
That metric is more important to me than click throughs since it means my readership is more engaged than a website many times bigger than mine, the most important thing. Just don't want the voracity of comments on a personal level to deter or detract from that strength of this growing site.
khoboken · 761 weeks ago
I really don't think that you want to start this up again. Your post was off topic, says nothing about revaluation and is taking a personal swipe at KS. Knock it off.
deleted5542758 83p · 761 weeks ago
There's no hatred in that post, there is finger pointing.
People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
If Dan was out there leading the charge for a reval, I would say "Wow, this guy really is for fixing up this town". But so far, I haven't seen anything indicating he is. I'm sure he's a nice guy, in fact, I've been told he is. But being nice doesn't pay the town's bills, and pointing fingers at one group (PILOTs) while enjoying the benefits of another scheme (no reval) is hardly intellectually honest. Just because it's not his fault that his taxes are low doesn't absolve him from his responsibility to acknowledge that while PILOTs are one problem, they're not the only problem with tax collections in Hoboken.
That was my point.
Gardiner4Hoboken 90p · 761 weeks ago
I am sacrificing a lot of my time in an attempt to grow a community online here and it does not help this website one iota when issues are put up and lead to a vendetta by you for someone you disagree with. All I ask is that you stay on topic when it comes to threads like this especially when I point out that I want this thread to stay on topic. Tactics like that scare away additional commenters and make for dull threads.
khoboken · 761 weeks ago
I know that this is your forum and sometimes your patience is tested with the comments, but on this one, I think that, unfortunately, KS is getting kicked around for pointing out that the emperor is not wearing any clothes.
khoboken · 761 weeks ago
deleted5542758 83p · 761 weeks ago
Hobokenswabee · 761 weeks ago
It is however an interesting point to note that critics of PILOTs can also have some issues on their side. In this case, it's very interesting Dan Tumpson pays so little in taxes. Although not his fault, you don't hear him pushing a reval and it's odd he was fighting a neighbor's four story building two doors down costing the builder a lot of time and money.
The sooner that project is completed like other similarly small scale units, the better the tax base is for Hoboken. It's going to happen a lot sooner and be more significant to the town's bottom line than the less than 3K paid by Mr. Tumpson.
deleted5542758 83p · 761 weeks ago
p1ywood 98p · 761 weeks ago
deleted5542758 83p · 761 weeks ago
Redrider765 · 761 weeks ago
p1ywood 98p · 761 weeks ago
elec fraudberg · 761 weeks ago
khoboken · 761 weeks ago
Katie_Scarlett · 761 weeks ago
khoboken · 761 weeks ago
One really has nothing to do with the other. Valuation is all about how the toital tax that is collected is spread out over the various property owners. The cap on taxes just limtis how much the total bill to be spread around can be increased.
p1ywood 98p · 761 weeks ago
-how long should we expect newer condo owners to shoulder a disproportionate share of property taxes?
-many people in newer construction agreed to a comparatively higher dollar amount of property tax as it was perceived at the time that property values would increase forever. Why does a soft economy change the rules?
-many people who have held a property for many years will be unable to finance a radical increase in property tax. Many came here to live and stay for life, not to get rich. A la rent control, doesn't the community at large owe these people a break or a gradation to their increase or just outright relief? Or do we simply tell them to shape up or ship out, the party's over?
- has the time come for basically a flat-tax based on assessed value, broken out by housing unit whether or not the building is owned by one entity with rentals or it is a condo/co-op? Perhaps renters should pay there taxes directly to the city? Consider that many renters as well are legitimately going to state hardship on the potentially massive increase in property tax pass-alongs, and may simply not have the funds to cover the increases. Should that be the landlord's problem, especially in under-market rent controlled units?
Important note: Take it easy on me, everyone. I am not an expert in this area. These are only my thoughts. As a community we need to approach this evenhandedly and maybe bend over backwards to understand other people's point of view.
deleted5542758 83p · 761 weeks ago
It will be difficult on people who moved here and are here to stay but are undergoing financial hardship. It'll also be hard on people who live here and don't have the means to do it, but stay on because we (people paying full freight) subsidize them. Should we have to continue to do that?
I know a lot of buyers in the past 2 years (and more like the past 3-4) have bought knowing/anticipating a reval that will be forthcoming, and that their property taxes will likely decrease. I also know that property taxes played a part in which units I would look at when shopping for a condo. If a building was out of line with other units I was looking at, I had no interest. That has to hurt those owners. I also avoided PILOT buildings if I knew they were PILOT buildings, mostly because I don't agree with PILOTs but also because I think they're going to end up on the short end of the stick after the reval (and no, I won't cry for them). --What that means is that I think that their fixed tax rate is similar to locking in on a fixed interest rate 5 years ago. Everyone thought it was a good idea at the time, but the interest rate has dropped significantly as will the taxes due on those buildings if they were taxed at market/reval rates. IMO
When is the reval due? I thought it was sometime next year?
HobokenReformer · 761 weeks ago
This must stop NOW! What would be the justification for continuing this unfair practice?
many people who have held a property for many years will be unable to finance a radical increase in property tax. Many came here to live and stay for life, not to get rich. A la rent control, doesn't the community at large owe these people a break or a gradation to their increase or just outright relief? Or do we simply tell them to shape up or ship out, the party's over?
The community does not "owe" anything to anybody. In fact, many of those "who held their property for many years" are partly to blame for the miserable financial situation this city is in today and for the fact that there hasn't been a reval in decades. Raising their assessments to fair market value will hopefully get them to wake up and stop supporting the old guard in local elections. So yes, pay up or ship out.
has the time come for basically a flat-tax based on assessed value, broken out by housing unit whether or not the building is owned by one entity with rentals or it is a condo/co-op?
Yes, absolutely. Why should rental units be assessed less than condos? Same location/size/amenities calls for same assessment/taxes.
Redrider765 · 761 weeks ago
p1ywood 98p · 761 weeks ago
-so you're saying settling here too early (or early than you) and not leaving leads to specific problems .Even voting problems. Intriguing (devisive?)platform. Well, in all due respect, what might you think is the counterpoint to that? Should many bear the consequences of the actions of a few?
Lookforward · 761 weeks ago
Redrider765 · 761 weeks ago
elec fraudberg · 761 weeks ago
Currently, many homeowners are appealing their tax evaluations due to tthe downturn in the market. This leaves the City paying out thousands every month.
Again, just a thought.
Boink · 761 weeks ago
at the rate of about 1.5% per month! Luxury 2 BRs going for 600k or less, ever with remodeled kitchens!!!
Tax on an older 2 BR can be 7-9k and for a newer one approaching 14k.
A reval ain't gonna fix that disparity soon enough, especially when we see another 20% free fall in prices.
Don't say Boink did not warn you sell and get out now or be a bagholder in Hoboken forever!
khoboken · 761 weeks ago
Thank you again for another less than intelligent effort to contribute to the discussion on theis site. Your comment really has nothing to do with the affects or process of a revaluation and frankly is a poor excuse at trying to garner attention. If property values fall in Hoboken, then they will likely all fall. Please try and understand and keep up with the conversation. I know that it may be difficult with your limited analytical capability, but please try and pay attention.
HobokenReformer · 761 weeks ago
126 Jefferson, Unit B, 3 BR doublex
size: 1500 sq ft
built in: 1997
sold on: 02/11/10
sales price: $237K
assessed value: $243K
ratio assessed value divided by actual sales price: 1.025
ratio assessed value divided by square footage: $162/sq ft
606 First, Unit 7, 1 BR
size: 616 sq ft
built in: 1901
sold on 03/29/10
sales price: $345K
assessed value: $50K
ratio assessed value divided by actual sales price: 0.145
ratio assessed value divided by square footage: $81/sq ft
The new property's assessment per sales price is SEVEN TIMES HIGHER than that of the old property, and the new property's assessment per square foot is TWICE that of the old property. These HUGE discrepancies can hardly be explained by the difference in age or by the (possible) difference in amenities, and location can't explain them either since the properties are very close to each other.
THE REVAL MUST HAPPEN ASAP!
Redrider765 · 761 weeks ago
Boink · 761 weeks ago
her prom date. I only give it hard and fast there Chucky Cheese.
Riddle me this Reval will take what 4 years to complete? By then
the taxpayers will by then be ready to tar and feather the politicians in town because they can't sell their underwater palace
and move little Chelsea and little Jayden to the burbs so they can learn how to ride a Schwinn.
You jokers think your taxes will be going down with a Reval? I got news for you by the time the Reval is complete
there will be little difference in price between an old 2 BR and a new one! Taxes will only be going UP!
People will be appealing like mad in Hoboken over the next 3-4 years as the Reval is getting under way. All it
takes is a 25% dispartiy in price comps and you can put in for an appeal, any good Shylock with comps in hand juiced up with a
couple cups of coffe can get your taxes lowered considerably.What is the difference in TAXES between a remodeled 2 BR on Bloomfield
and 2 Br in the soon to be old Constitution when all of the current comps come in within 50k in
a few years? Answer Ugats!
khoboken · 761 weeks ago
Boinkfest · 761 weeks ago
Boink · 761 weeks ago
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_G4ZYD3Vb0
Gardiner4Hoboken 90p · 761 weeks ago
Boinkfest · 761 weeks ago
Makes far more sense.
p1ywood 98p · 761 weeks ago
NotsoEasyE · 761 weeks ago
Tough to say, but they need to do it at some point, it only gets worse the longer you wait.
ss1959 · 761 weeks ago
Gardiner4Hoboken 90p · 761 weeks ago
Gardiner4Hoboken 90p · 761 weeks ago
Colin · 761 weeks ago
If not lets look for new candidates to support. I like the new council majority and mayor but if they can't get this moving its time to see who will
Boink · 760 weeks ago
The cats are kept happy too because there will be some old boiler around to feed them.