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| Dan Tumpson when he ran for City Council |
Advocates for redevelopment on the other side of the political fence maintain that since other municipalities are doing them extensively, Hoboken should too since we get screwed by the county otherwise and pay more than our fair share as a municipality. This is a view that was and still is shared by former Mayor Roberts as well as Peter Cammarano who coincidentally is doing two years for taking bribes from a developer. In fact Mayor Roberts used to say "No good deed goes unpunished". I feel many in reform would respond "Well, two wrongs don't make a right".
Dan has a website called Hoboken Citizens and the URL is now http://www.hobokencitizens.net/. He has some other issues archived on that site for your perusal as well. While Dan did not win as a candidate a big part of me wishes that more people had listened too him on this topic as his predictions about the effect of PILOTS and they way they were concocted were eerily prophetic. Perhaps Dan's explanations were a bit wonkish but give the guy a break; he has a Ph.D. The more important thing is Dan appears to be right in at least that PILOTS cost regular tax payers money. He doesn't completely say no to PILOTS but concludes that the agreements that are created should at least be adjustable on a yearly basis so that taxes are not increased for everyone else. It is a subtle position but based on numerical analysis. However, from a pragmatic standpoint a developer would be unlikely to engage in a PILOT if they knew the taxation would work out to be the same. In order to get buildings you would nto normally get you have to give something up as a city. You just have to make sure you get back is worth it for the city. If you are good at math, hone in your skills and get calculating with Dan's explanation below......
Here is another article on how the agreement to build the W hotel (which is a fine hotel by the way and an asset to the City of Hoboken) screws Hoboken taxpayers by over 14%.....
Port Authority Redevelopment PILOT Deal Adds 14.1% to Hoboken Taxes
http://www.hobokencitizens.net/patax01.htm
And finally, the seminar......
Dan Tumpson's PILOT Seminar on Property tax Rates from 10/22/2008:
Feel free to state your opinion either way in the comments below but regardless of your stance, do take a stab at the math. Perhaps a simpler "PILOTS for Dummies" version of this seminar is forthcoming. As for me, I don't think PILOTS should be used for residential highrises. That is my opinion and quite a few other reformers out there. ◦
Logging you in...
Katie_Scarlett · 761 weeks ago
Also, I can't really spend the time necessary reading this document (eye surgery), if what I posted above is true, then I can say that I find it unlikely that this guy is credible. Eventually I will get to it, just not today.
deleted5542758 83p · 761 weeks ago
Tumpson pays $2693/year in taxes on his downtown Park Avenue apartment.
According to the Hudson County tax records, his unit is assessed at $60,000, bought in 2006 and is 682 square feet.
Did he make any improvements? Does he have outdoor space (I think I heard he has a deck). This is UNBELIEVABLE.
http://tax1.co.monmouth.nj.us/cgi-bin/m4.cgi?&...
Redrider765 · 761 weeks ago
The city needs to get rid of all tax policies that distort the tax burden in this town. That means no more PILOTs and that means you reassess every couple years at most and make sure the assessed values for every property in town come as close to the true market value as possible. We have to stop taxing units built ages ago that sell for $200K only just $2K or so in taxes while their neighbors in newer buildings in condos worth $500K pay 6x as much. And it is inexcusable to have old apartment buildings w/ a dozen units paying as much in taxes as a 3 BR condo built 4-5 years ago. The answer isn't to just get rid of PILOTs. ALL policies that distort the free market and the equitable sharing of the tax burden in this town must be eliminated. Everyone should be paying taxes based on the fair market value of the unit they occupy. The only people who should be getting any special treatment at all are people who live in housing projects.
BTW - if you don't believe any of my above examples happens then you can go look at the city website, see what every unit in town pays in taxes and cross reference it w/ real estate listings. It is shocking how much new construction is getting taken advantage of in this town. Accurate information on the PILOTs don’t seem to be up on the city site but if you go to a realtor’s site you can get figures on the PILOT payments there. If you live in a newer building then you will be livid when you see how little some people in this town get away with paying. You can search by name and by address. You can get an approximation of market values from a real estate listing site. Compare the older units to the newer units that have and don't have PILOTs.
Here is the link for the city tax database: http://www.hobokennj.org/departments/business-adm...
Indiecom · 761 weeks ago
Katie_Scarlett · 761 weeks ago
Oh and btw, you don't address the fact that plenty of buildings/older units (including CT) have granite and marble and upgrades and still pay less than their fair share. I'm hardpressed to believe that many people living in brownstones and Church Towers aren't upgrading. Hell, I was in a unit in CT that has granite and marble countertops. MARBLE countertops. . . UNBELIEVABLE.
deleted8670214 100p · 761 weeks ago
Indiecom · 761 weeks ago
Indiecom · 761 weeks ago
Katie_Scarlett · 761 weeks ago
And I've been here a long time, I mean, not as long as you of course, but 7 years. I guess my surprise is that someone would buy a "house" that small.
Also, your point didn't take away from RR's post. So I'm trying to figure out WTH you're talking about.
deleted8670214 100p · 761 weeks ago
Indiecom · 761 weeks ago
deleted8670214 100p · 761 weeks ago
Give Matt_72 my regards when you see him but tell him I think he needs to get his eyes checked and a gf who is a little bit less of a senior citizen. I always liked his posts and I am more than a little disappointed to find out he hangs out w/ fugly old bats like you. I guess he has a little less taste than I gave him credit for.
deleted5542758 83p · 761 weeks ago
Wonder what old Danny-boy is paying, hold on. ..
TUMPSON paid $2,693 last year in taxes.
$2693 for his unit between 2nd and 3rd on PARK!
Unless he's living in 300 square feet of space, how is this equitable?????? ARE YOU F'N KIDDING ME? :@
Don't take my word for it, look it up: http://wipp.edmundsassoc.com/Wipp0905/
More detail here: http://tax1.co.monmouth.nj.us/cgi-bin/m4.cgi?&...
Bought in 1996, assessed value is 60K, 682 square feet.
khoboken · 761 weeks ago
Good catch
Points up two issues. First is the lack of a revaluation in town for the past 20 years. Very inequitable tax burden created. Many people are hypocrites. DT should voluntarily agree to pay his fair share of taxes if he wants to be intellectually consistent.
Gardiner4Hoboken 90p · 761 weeks ago
On that note, I for one would support certain commercial PILOTS if they were structured to help keep rents down for businesses. Initially I was against all PILOTS but recognize that in some case they could be useful but not for residential high rises. I do think the calculation methodology here is essentially correct but you can use that information to draw different conclusions about development.
khoboken · 761 weeks ago
You and I will never agree on that issue, unless it is a dedicated zone like the failed artist district in JC. Why should I support a business that cant; be viable? No one supports my business and if I cant manage and run it efficiently and serve clients/customers in a way that is profitable, why would I look to my fellow citizens for a subsidy/handout? I am against any subsidy unless it is has a celarly stated socail prupose and is supported by economic criteria and is enforced effectively. The problem with most governmental subsidy programs is that they quickly become abused. See Church Towers as a primary and flagrant example.
Gardiner4Hoboken 90p · 761 weeks ago
Sent from my iPhone
khoboken · 761 weeks ago
Gardiner4Hoboken 90p · 761 weeks ago
Sent from my iPhone
Gardiner4Hoboken 90p · 761 weeks ago
Sent from my iPhone
deleted5542758 83p · 761 weeks ago
Do you agree that it's hypocritical of Dan (or anyone) to be so against PILOTs because PILOTs are inequitable, but then Dan himself is paying well below the equitable amount of taxes on his property? What about Indie? Surely she knows that even in a rent controlled unit, if the taxes on her building go up the owner can pass that along to each unit regardless of rent control -- so her rent is inequitably deflated right now because her building is undervalued and not paying what is due. But she screams as loudly as Dan about PILOTs.
I mean, you see the inconsistency here, right? What's good for the goose (Dan & Indie) is not good for the gander? They're getting their's, but no one else should be allowed to (gee, sounds A LOT like Dan's position on that 4th floor variance on his block while he lives on the FIFTH floor! -- at least he's consistently a hypocrite).
tax payer · 761 weeks ago
If a Tax Payer which resides in a new condo 2BR/2BA valued at 600K (at the peak of the market) with a pilot of $10,000.00 a year and Hoboken gets $9,500.00, how are they getting over. Especially compared to someone living in renovated brownstone that pays the same amount for the entire building and rear yard, which may have a value of over $1,500,000.00 The City of Hoboken will only get $3,500.00 from that Brownstone. The County and School(crooks) will blow the remaining money.
Why else do you think it ends up costing over $27,000.00 per student annually, and over $400,000,000.00 to run the County. If you give the schools or the County any additional money, they will blow it like they always have. The County is a disgrace, and nothing more than an institution to give out Politically connected jobs and contracts. The Hoboken School system is right behind it. Ever see what a janitor makes in the schools. I will give you a hint. It's more than the Mayor makes here.
Redrider765 · 761 weeks ago
Gardiner4Hoboken 90p · 761 weeks ago
I agree with the calculations methodology that Dan provides but not necessarily his political assessment of the way PILOTS should be crafted.
As for someone's assessed value being under what it should be. The REVAL will take care of that. how in the hell is that Dan's fault? Russo and Roberts didn't do a reval for 20+ years.
deleted5542758 83p · 761 weeks ago
My point with Dan *and Indie* is that they're sitting here smugly complaining about PILOTs as though they are being financially defrauded by them, when in fact, they are a part of the problem and paying less in taxes than most PILOTed apartments.
That's my point on his (their) hypocrisy.
As for his calculations, I disagree with you. Redrider hit the nail on the head in his/her first post.
I disagree with PILOTs in Hoboken as much as the rest of you, I just also disagree with hypocrisy, which is something that Dan & Indie celebrate, revel in and live by. Apparently, many (including you) don't seem willing or able to see/call them out on it.
deleted5542758 83p · 761 weeks ago
Do you agree that it's hypocritical of Dan (or anyone) to be so against PILOTs because PILOTs are inequitable, but then Dan himself is paying well below the equitable amount of taxes on his property? What about Indie? Surely she knows that even in a rent controlled unit, if the taxes on her building go up the owner can pass that along to each unit regardless of rent control -- so her rent is inequitably deflated right now because her building is undervalued and not paying what is due. But she screams as loudly as Dan about PILOTs.
I mean, you see the inconsistency here, right? What's good for the goose (Dan & Indie) is not good for the gander? They're getting their's, but no one else should be allowed to (gee, sounds A LOT like Dan's position on that 4th floor variance on his block while he lives on the FIFTH floor! -- at least he's consistently a hypocrite).
khoboken · 761 weeks ago
Katie_Scarlett · 761 weeks ago
ps, on the low end, his unit would go for $425/square foot or $290K. Given its location, it's more like 450-500/square foot or --306,900-341,000.
Redrider765 · 761 weeks ago
khoboken · 761 weeks ago